The pricing is crazy/justified thread

[lost53]

Ahh, reasonable is the whole new ball game. No, the prices are obviously not reasonable. They are quite mental, actually.


Thirdly, en masse, our buying habits have changed because of fast fashion. Even as early as 60-70 years ago, a coat would cost you a monthly salary. But it would be a coat of such quality that you'd wear it every day for several years. It was worth it, and there was no scorn for wearing the same thing every day, the way it is now. Today, 99% of society will think you should be put into a mental institution for buying a coat that costs you a monthly salary, but they won't blink at buying a coat a year and then throwing it out.

Very well put, a subject very close to my heart. I couldn't agree more.

[DRRRK]

^Didn't read that one before. All posts should be deleted from this thread except for this. What else is there left to say?

[BSR]

^Didn't read that one before. All posts should be deleted from this thread except for this. What else is there left to say?

one post, one jacket! you're in quite a minimalist mood

[PaintedBlack_7]

Today, 99% of society will think you should be put into a mental institution for buying a coat that costs you a monthly salary, but they won't blink at buying a coat a year and then throwing it out.

Oh man, i had such a hard time explaining this to my Girlfriend the other day. for the years i've had my clothing it turned out to be cheaper than her H&M, Gap and forever 21 1 season then throw it out cycle.

I don't think its a fashion mentality or something limited to clothing. People in the United States today are just raised by this wasteful attitude, Everything needs to be cheap and everything is disposable, cars, computers, clothes, razors, watches (people would rather wear a timex and throw it out rather than buy a patek phillipe or something that lasts forever)

I tend to prefer buying fewer articles of clothing of higher quality becuase it makes you think about your choices, think about your look and gives you a reason to get the specific article of clothing tailored to your body improving your overall look than this disposable junk wear.

[BSR]

but the reason is very easy to understand, consumption has become an end in itself, this is the very definition of consumerism, when the act of buying is more important than the consequences of this act. When your need to kop is beyond your need for what you kop you know you're part of the time.

[franz]

maybe there is.

However, there is a big aspect that ppl who buy ccp, ma+, luc, etc is because of their artisanship/industrial artistry, or something. there is always something to discuss about their work.

Being an elitist is probably the last thing in their mind.

Re: rising price. I think hobo covered well in this area at the luc thread. It could be from many factors..

Interesting thread
I have the impression it introduced two very different ways of pricing an object :

• Tangible arguments (costs of production + markup)
• Intangible (offer vs. demand)

If think the former is essentially a way of pricing stuff that is reserved to mass market. Even relatively "high-end" designers (think YSL, Dior, Vuitton and the likes of it) still manage to make a benefit when they organize private sales for their employees (and at a time, Vuitton's employees sales were at 90% off). of course, we are talking gross margin, excl. store, marketing and logistics costs. But then again, these costs are not intrinsically linked to the quality of your piece of clothing (even so, I have some cashmere sweaters by Vuitton from early 2000s, and they are some of the best cashmere pieces I've ever had)
But I digress. I mean that even "high-end" pricing is very influenced by offer and demand, not only by intrinsic quality. And it shows in what I think has been a strong fall in Dior Homme's quality along the years (not at all today what it was in 2002-2003). At the same time, prices went up, and I don't think that can be attributable to quality (processes or garments)

For more edgy designers (CCP, M.A+, Guidi etc) it's getting more complicated because of an even higher information asymmetry : very secret and discreet brands. The "average" consumer, such as me (I do not have extensive, to say the least, experience with these designers, apart from coming across some of their pieces at l'Eclaireur in Paris) do not have any information about the process, quality of garments etc.
And price starts being an information in itself (adverse selection), requiring you to make of leap of faith (this is supposed to be good quality, since these shoes are 3K€/this coat is 7000K€).

I must say I am not totally buying into the "art" thing, cause I'm buying a piece of clothing to wear it, it's how it's suppose to express itself : even if some pieces may have an artistic feel, it's not supposed to be hanged on the wall (it's like buying a video installation on DVD, and taping the DVD on the wall instead of playing it on a proper screen).
And this is not a purely utilitarian pov, there are plenty of clothes that look like s**t on a hanger, but really come to life when you are trying them on, and start moving with them.

So if I buy a 7K jacket/coat (which I never did, and may do only if I get super-rich...), I'll be seriously distraught if it starts falling apart, looses its quality and so on.

How to circumvent this when you are this "average" buyer?

1. Look for tangible clues!
2. Try to assess the intagible value of a specific item

For tangibles : Well I must say I love to speak with shopkeepers, but sometimes I feel like they are not able to tell me more an this or that piece of clothing. I like to hear about specific processes, were the leather comes from, how the fabric was put together, about the creative idea behind a specific piece...
Read this forum. And report good as well as poor experiences with quality of your purchases.

As far as intangibles are concerned, the question is "how badly do you want this item?" + "Can I afford it?".
Most of the pieces people talk about here are one-of-a-kind, or close to. A YSL or Dior jacket for 2K$ may be done with better quality by a bespoke tailor. I doubt a local artisanal shoemaker (even a good one) could reproduce a pair of Guidi boots or some CCP pants...
So if you really fall in love at first sight with a piece, and know at the very least that it will last for a long time, then well, what good is money for, if not to be spent?

To finish with, there seems to be some people here that work in the industry... As far as quality is concerned, have any of you been ever invited to some of these designers workshops? Is this very secretive, or do some of you have ever had access to information that could justify the pricing?
As far the financial aspect of this... well until we are invited for an open accounting book session, it's gonna be difficult to assess with hard data (unless the Guidi family has a collection of 30 ferraris in front of their workshop).

[michael_kard]

/\ Well said I think.

Oh man, i had such a hard time explaining this to my Girlfriend the other day. for the years i've had my clothing it turned out to be cheaper than her H&M, Gap and forever 21 1 season then throw it out cycle.

I don't think its a fashion mentality or something limited to clothing. People in the United States today are just raised by this wasteful attitude, Everything needs to be cheap and everything is disposable, cars, computers, clothes, razors, watches (people would rather wear a timex and throw it out rather than buy a patek phillipe or something that lasts forever)

I tend to prefer buying fewer articles of clothing of higher quality becuase it makes you think about your choices, think about your look and gives you a reason to get the specific article of clothing tailored to your body improving your overall look than this disposable junk wear.

I completely disagree with this approach. The quality factor that was once very important is simply irrelevant in the case of designer clothing, dare I say it's almost like a fetishistic obsession. If you were genuinely interested in quality you would be looking at the latest developments in materials and construction (sort of like the think Zam did a few years ago), and not washed/distressed/piece-dyed leather shoes and jackets. As long as the sleeves don't fall apart, it's fine. There's tons of brands that make clothing and shoes that will literally last a lifetime without any extreme care (like Vibram or switching boots every day) and none of them are discussed here.

On the other hand, it's true that clothes these days are unsustainably cheap, too affordable. Yet my oldest clothes are from H&M, and I've never had any problems with them, believe it or not...

The only thing worth paying for is how the clothes make you feel. Those pieces that you just know are unique and beautiful, like looking at a pair of Ann boots or a Rick jacket for the first time and thinking "this is beautiful, and i've seen nothing like it". It's the aesthetic of designers that makes the difference. If something is not beautiful, I can't see how it's worth more than 0.

[Faust]

but the reason is very easy to understand, consumption has become an end in itself, this is the very definition of consumerism, when the act of buying is more important than the consequences of this act. When your need to kop is beyond your need for what you kop you know you're part of the time.

Indeed. Shopping as leisure - there was a concept to wrap my poor Soviet-bread mind around when I moved here.

[Faust]

Franz, more posts like these, please!

[BSR]

Indeed. Shopping as leisure - there was a concept to wrap my poor Soviet-bread mind around when I moved here.

but it's more than that, it's shopping not as simple leisure (it's cool to visit walmart), it's shopping as a metaphysical quest (i shop therefore i am)

[theconsumer]

If they fall apart after a hour of wearing, your clothes will make you feel real bad . They'd better be comfortable as well. So, utility and durability are part of the package. Without quality of construction and material, the garment will look abysmal, even if exact design is copied. One look at the designer fakes is enough to convince me of that.

Of course, you can have amazing comfort and look without durability. Even quality of construction without durability if fragile materials are used. But garment should be designed with constraints of real world wear and tear in mind. What use is chemical treatment which makes jeans look amazing if it also weakens it to the point of falling apart after one wash cycle.

I would also say that durability is often implied in aesthetics. For example, military boots and skater sneakers. Military boots are made for walking and if Rick sneakers look like monstrous dunks, you should be able to play basketball in them without caring.

/\ Well said I think.

The only thing worth paying for is how the clothes make you feel. Those pieces that you just know are unique and beautiful, like looking at a pair of Ann boots or a Rick jacket for the first time and thinking "this is beautiful, and i've seen nothing like it". It's the aesthetic of designers that makes the difference. If something is not beautiful, I can't see how it's worth more than 0.

[eat me]

<...>To finish with, there seems to be some people here that work in the industry... As far as quality is concerned, have any of you been ever invited to some of these designers workshops? Is this very secretive, or do some of you have ever had access to information that could justify the pricing?
As far the financial aspect of this... well until we are invited for an open accounting book session, it's gonna be difficult to assess with hard data (unless the Guidi family has a collection of 30 ferraris in front of their workshop).

Fantastic post. As for the question, let's put it that way, Prada will make "10" times more profit on a pair of trousers compared to niche label brands.

And that's where the hurt lies. People come and see a £1700 coat and think: "What? Who is this guy? I've never heard of the brand like that and he thinks he can sell it at this price??! OMFG ". And then there's a £3000 Dior one, and people are "Well shit, it's Dior".

To put it even simpler - Uniqlo's CEO is the richest man in Japan > Ralph Lauren owns a motor park with a couple of notable beauties worth ~$30-40 mil each > one of the beloved here designers working for a long-long time was living on the streets at one point.

[copacetic]

Good new idea on this thread: Franz writing about information asymmetry and how that relates to price.

Everything else on this page: blah blah blah why people got 2 kop blah blah my girlfriend doesn't understand me blah blah.

[Faust]

but it's more than that, it's shopping not as simple leisure (it's cool to visit walmart), it's shopping as a metaphysical quest (i shop therefore i am)

Maybe, but it is definitely not cool to visit walmart

[Fuuma]

but it's more than that, it's shopping not as simple leisure (it's cool to visit walmart), it's shopping as a metaphysical quest (i shop therefore i am)

I shopt at Hermès because others can't. (I think that's their offer in a nutshell).