Designer Greatness and Generational Debate

[christianef]

he sure knows how to hold onto his fans :)

[Faust]

He truly is a survivor.
Longevity and relevance - does that make greatness?

No, just good PR skills.

[andrew]

I was just discussing recently whether or not Lagerfeld should be considered the greatest designer of all time and as much as it pains me i must agree that he probably is: I think longevity does count for alot in the sense that fashion changes very quickly and how many good designers have a finite lifespan because they could change and adapt when they needed to. Lagerfeld has been consistently at the top of his game for decades, heads one of the most successful couture houses, but still designs fashion forward stuff for his own label: its not avant garde but its definitely modern rather than just a string of references.

Though he cant do it all himself, so perhaps the title of greatest creative director is more apt.

[Faust]

Chanel today is as modern as haute couture was in the 60s when Bardot declared that it's for old ladies.

[docus]

Interesting debate. I have nothing to add about who should qualify as 'great', but I'm interested in the process of how people get labelled as great. Is it a consensus thing, started by 'opinion leaders', slowly percolating and then snowballing into a climate of dogmatic, unchallenged public opinion?

Let's consider someone outside fashion, like Einstein - most people know of him as a 'great', a genius, the epitome of super-intelligence, etc., but very few really know his work in any deep or meaningful way. They just know the image, and they don't think or question beyond that - they don't need to. Einstein has simply become the go-to 'genius' archetype for most people.

And so it is with many other things, fashion designers included. But in fashion it's even less clear, because anyone who took the time to learn about physics could come to see the truth or falsity of Einstein's theories, while fashion is totally subjective and untestable! I think CCP, LUC, Ann D, RO etc., are great, but my girlfriend thinks they're overrated trash, riding high on rep.

And, if I'm honest with myself, there are certain things made by designers I admire and think of as 'great' that I wouldn't look at twice if I saw them with no label in a charity shop. Sometimes, in moments of narcissistic weakness, I realise I am merely buying into the reassurance of a designer's purported 'greatness' to give myself confidence, in the vain hope that their 'greatness' will somehow reflect qualities of aesthetic refinement onto the more fragile parts of myself...

Emperors new clothes???

[Faust]

Your girlfriend is jaded, because in the fashion world CCP and LUC don't even register on the radar.

I can think of several criteria that make a designer great.

1. Creating a new aesthetic (Vionette, Chanel, Balenciaga, YSL, Westwood, CdG, Yohji, maybe Ann, Rick, Elbaz).

2. Creating mind-blowing clothes.(McQueen, Hussein Chalayan)

3. Being a genius technician (Junya Watanabe, Poell)

[taylor]

How about if they did produce something great, but now produce rubbish/rely on their past 'greatness'? does this dilute peoples opinions on how great they are? Does a designer need to continue to be visionary to continue being great?

An example of this IMO is Westwood, while her influence on (particularly british) fashion is unquestionable, and her early collections brilliant, I don't feel there is anything special about her current work.

[AKA*NYC]

^ this can be said for just about anyone who doesn't die or stop working in their prime. there is greatness and there is consistency and in some very rare cases there is both. but i would not say they are mutually exclusive.

[kunk75]

i know i am a mark but rick would certainly fit 1.

Your girlfriend is jaded, because in the fashion world CCP and LUC don't even register on the radar.

I can think of several criteria that make a designer great.

1. Creating a new aesthetic (Vionette, Chanel, Balenciaga, YSL, Westwood, CdG, Yohji, maybe Ann, Rick, Elbaz).

2. Creating mind-blowing clothes.(McQueen, Hussein Chalayan)

3. Being a genius technician (Junya Watanabe, Poell)

[Faust]

How about if they did produce something great, but now produce rubbish/rely on their past 'greatness'? does this dilute peoples opinions on how great they are? Does a designer need to continue to be visionary to continue being great?

An example of this IMO is Westwood, while her influence on (particularly british) fashion is unquestionable, and her early collections brilliant, I don't feel there is anything special about her current work.

I don't care about that - once someone is great, they are great (except maybe Raf! ).

[525252]

except maybe Raf!

^
boo!

I think labels of "genius and greatness" can be quite damaging. People will inevitably compare their work to their past work, and expect consistent revelations of genius. So if the people are critical, they'll beat down on "inadequate" efforts or if the people are complacent, they'll continue idolising someone's work when it isn't that great.
Shouldn't we understand that they're all human and will change or have periods of uninspired moosh?


and with the Lagerfield quote- That would make him a great craftsman, I don't think anything much more.

[cremaster]

As a person who's 'heyday" was in the 80's I cannot go past the Japanese - Yohji and Rei, to a lesser extent Issey.
When they first hit the fashion world it was so different, creative, innovative ... SO exciting.
Their aesthetic was so strong.
After the Japanese invasion it was then the Belgians (there were many, MM, Ann, even Walther Van Beirendonck etc).
Between them they covered so much ground. It was an incredible time.
I see their influences everywhere.
But to me it will always be about Yohji and Rei and how they changed everything.
A very special mention also goes out to Gaultier. In his day he was a god.
The daring of JPG was breathtaking. He blazed a trail for so many designers. Alexander McQueen is an undeniable genius, but give me JPG in his prime anyday.

[Yan]

As a person who's 'heyday" was in the 80's I cannot go past the Japanese - Yohji and Rei, to a lesser extent Issey.
When they first hit the fashion world it was so different, creative, innovative ... SO exciting.
Their aesthetic was so strong.
After the Japanese invasion it was then the Belgians (there were many, MM, Ann, even Walther Van Beirendonck etc).
Between them they covered so much ground. It was an incredible time.
I see their influences everywhere.
But to me it will always be about Yohji and Rei and how they changed everything.
A very special mention also goes out to Gaultier. In his day he was a god.
The daring of JPG was breathtaking. He blazed a trail for so many designers. Alexander McQueen is an undeniable genius, but give me JPG in his prime anyday.

I would also add that Dirk Bikkembergs was the designer of very interesting leather jackets in the eighties and it always amazes me, what happened????

[cremaster]

I agree with dirk and I was going to mention him but thought I was getting long winded. There were many great Belgian designers at that time.

[eat me]

I think it would be helpful for many younger/new to fashion members of the forum to have your posts with attached illustrations.

You say Rei and Yohji were groundbreaking in the 80s, why not demonstrate your point with some pictures of what you consider their iconic changed-everything designs?

I think it would make the thread so much more engaging for us and lurkers alike. Perhaps even encourage someone to pop out of the shadows.