How Hip-Hop Stole Rock's Thunder

[Fuuma]

The picture is from when Nicky Minaj's released her single Anaconda and broke down the internet that day. That picture shows very well what it's all about today, in both music and fashion.

It's not because 2-3 videos about asses and bad pop music were recently released and Vogue just discovered that people like fat booty that it has an influence on fashion collections....Is Rick Owens showing G-strings on stripteasers?

Oh and about your earlier, ill-received comments

1) Let's not bullshit each other, from the point of view of western, upper-class good taste (something that the western upper-class no longer possesses) Chinese nouveau riche buying habits are pretty much the incarnation of bad taste. Ok.
2) On the other hand the brands represented here are also mostly in bad taste according to these standards.
3) Furthermore, dressing in good taste or even well in "SZ style" or even "whateverfashion style" isn't really that hard, let's not conflate designing garments with wearing them. Consumers are getting waaaayyy too proud of their wonderful buying habits and how it makes them so tasteful.

[Fuuma]

Again, I think you are largely stuck in the 90s. Come to New York and see who drives fashion now, especially high-end streetwear - it's the young black kids. Hood by Air is no accident.

This is mostly an American phenomenon though, established European houses are sometimes (think Givenchy) getting inspiration from black urban culture but it is filtered through the prism of traditional fashion perceptions (i.e. European, gay and into hype).

[apathy!]

explain how brands represented here are mostly in bad taste according to "Western upper-class good taste".

[Fuuma]

explain how brands represented here are mostly in bad taste according to "Western upper-class good taste".

Is this a joke?

I won't cover representations evoked by Rick or whatever (street kids, transvestites, rockstars etc.) but will merely concentrate on the idea of division by context as a barrier to identify and exclude outsiders in trad menswear. You can't wear a navy suit of mid weight wool and think you are ok, everything is compartmentalized, unlike in SZ-fashion where uniformity of texture, colours and formality is sought after.

1) City/Country: In the city you wear black shoes, greys and navies, more sheen and less patterns and detailing, in the country you might wear a brown tweed patterned jacket, brown brogue boots, a tattersall shirt etc.. The colours of stone and steel versus those of earth and moss. Usually less texture in the city. etc
2) Night/day: black is reserved for the nightime (think dinner jackets versus morning dress).
3) Business formal/casual: suit in a sleek wool and captoe oxford versus a wingtip derby and mismatched jacket and pants with some texture. Never wear a sleek jacket as a sportcoat, it has to have some sort of texture and pattern (and more rustic or interesting buttons) otherwise people will think it is an orphaned jacket (worn without it's matching pants). Amusingly enough sportcoats were originally orphaned jacket worn during relaxation or whatever, the pants of a bespoke suit being worn down before the jackets.
4) Summer/winter: light fabrics like linen and cotton, lighter colours, loafers etc versus dark fabrics in heavier materials like flannel or tweed, maybe heavier shoes etc.

tradition is all about exclusion through the complexity of divisions according to various contexts.

[Faust]

This is mostly an American phenomenon though, established European houses are sometimes (think Givenchy) getting inspiration from black urban culture but it is filtered through the prism of traditional fashion perceptions (i.e. European, gay and into hype).

There is Pigalle and MORT in Paris. And though it is undoubtedly filtered (as much in Rick Owens as it is in Givenchy), the influence, and increasingly the intertwining is undeniable. Of course, this is not THE movement, this is just one movement, but that can by said about anything.

[guardimp]

Fuuma - How do the brands discussed here go against that? I could see the argument that the way they are styled here is contrary to those rules, yet many brands here do clothes that can fit into all those rules.

Faust - do you see the encroachment of black/gay/urban culture outside of cities?

[Fuuma]

There is Pigalle and MORT in Paris. And though it is undoubtedly filtered (as much in Rick Owens as it is in Givenchy), the influence, and increasingly the intertwining is undeniable. Of course, this is not THE movement, this is just one movement, but that can by said about anything.

Pigalle is an older label and is more hipster than anything else, more Supreme than black fashion. It is worn by people with tattoos, beards and retro-hair who eat gourmet burgers at Blend.

MORT is just a copy of American brands you'd use as an example, not very well established or anything.

I am not entirely against what you are saying, merely positing it is a mostly American phenomenon, more established labels preferring to adapt to that influence rather than actually integrate people that are driving it.

Last time I was at Silencio I did see a group of black guys who could be considered part of that movement/look, it is definitely out there but not with the same strength than in the US and not as integrated in the industry.

[Fuuma]

Fuuma - How do the brands discussed here go against that? I could see the argument that the way they are styled here is contrary to those rules, yet many brands here do clothes that can fit into all those rules.

They go entirely against that because they're about uniformity of style and garments (of course coats for winter and just two tees for summer or whatever) and usage for all occasions. The philosophy is basically a 180.

[Faust]

Fuuma - How do the brands discussed here go against that? I could see the argument that the way they are styled here is contrary to those rules, yet many brands here do clothes that can fit into all those rules.

Faust - do you see the encroachment of black/gay/urban culture outside of cities?

Not sure what you mean. People in the countryside wear plaid shirts and mud boots. If you are talking about B-cities and periphery, it will undoubtedly get there, just like everything else does.

[guardimp]

I mean exactly that, you see urban culture in urban settings. In contrast, when you look at non urban settings you don't see the influx of urban/black/gay culture. It sets up an interesting dichotomy of a two state society. Urban revitalization and acceptance of blackness in an urban setting isn't anything novel. It seems quite overdue to have the reappearance of black culture in areas that have suffered from gentrification. We see the backlash from fashion to politics with the ending of stop and frisk.

As a sidenote this seems like capitalism working on extracting money from the urban communities who have more money due to improved social and economic conditions. When they cant be kept down by force just sell them their culture back for a hefty profit.

[apathy!]

Fuuma, it seems as if you mean Western upper-class good tastes pertaining to a certain era.

[BlacknWhite]

Perhaps this should be in random fashion thoughts...

Thinking one large group of peoples idea (no matter the time period) of good taste is good taste, and others aren't, puts a bad taste in my mouth. This idea of looking down on others because they aren't like you, makes me want to move away from what ever that good taste is, rather than embracing it. I guess that's where Style Zeitgeist comes in.

[pilgrim]

I've worked in the industry.

Gotta respect it.

[Fuuma]

Fuuma, it seems as if you mean Western upper-class good tastes pertaining to a certain era.

As opposed to transcendental, a-historical good taste?

Just to put things into perspective: I hardly dress following the diktats of good taste, preferring to go against them a lot of times. The examples I presented are just that, examples to illustrate a wide-ranging set of practices.

[upsilonkng]

I think it comes down to the audience..

this sounds bad but i believe it to be the truth. The audience today wants to relate and be a part of (song/artist/etc), the audience of yesteryear wanted or at least was willing to absorb art, have their mind expanded etc..

People then believed that art/music could change things and they were cool w/ paying for that, now... they just want confirmation that they're using the right phrase to describe something (usually wrong "Kray" comes to mind) .

Music is only succeeding in commercials and corporate beddings and that explains why hip hop and edm and general music-less music actually makes money. Think about this, our most popular Singers (katy perry?J.Lo etc..) can't sing, they can dance a little I guess, our most famous producers can't play "happy birthday" on a piano, our most famous musicians/ genius who? Kanye? has never played a song can't play a single instrument, can't sing in key or rap in key.

What better way for this newer audience to relate than to people who are incapable of their choosen careers? we (and by we I'm excluding myself and all of my peers who are actually certainly the top .00001% of all musicians in the world) don't want music or art, we want people to tell us what to do, people who are just as smart or dumb as we are, nothing extraordinary to make us feel less than. And these people have nothing better to do than to name drop, and big time everything because they aren't obsessed w/ getting good at something, they don't have anything to actually say other than "i want this, i fucked this, i'm gonna get this, i'm gonna fuck this" so that's why they rule fashion and influence because today's sheep flock HARD...