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  • laika
    moderator
    • Sep 2006
    • 3787

    Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

    [quote user="Faust"]

    Laika didn't even address it, instead supporting Johnny's ridiculous claim that this collaboration is the same as outsourcing production of one's main line.



    [/quote]



    This just isn't true, Faust. I did address your post, repeatedly--have a look at my first three or four posts in this discussion.



    [quote user="Faust"]Ok, here is what I thought about when I said that
    this is pathetic. I am sick and tired of our culture being gripped by
    postmodern notions of wallowing in bad taste, of camp (with very few
    exceptions), of self-deprecating humor, of that irony-with-a-smirk, of
    rebellion-as-embracing-consumer culture, of that it's-so-bad-its-good,
    of mediocrity-as-the-norm, and Rei has been embodying all that in the
    past years. This collaboration only epitomizes that. "Look at me, I
    am doing the same as Madonna, but I am smart and artistic, so you KNOW
    I am doing it with the sense or irony, wink-wink."
    Don't make me puke,
    Rei. Oh, too late... Rei is the new Vivienne Westwood. You heard it
    here first.



    [/quote]



    Perhaps I ought to have spoken more generally, instead of critiquing your use of vocabulary. [:$] I certainly do not dispute, by any means, that Rei or this collaboration are deserving of criticism. But I don't think her body of work over the past few years can be reduced to a series of ironic, self-deprecating, wink-wink gestures. I really feel that all of the collections I referenced in the images above are better than that, more than that. Some of them were extremely beautiful, even if not ground-breaking. I certainly don't think they were "garbage," by any standards; and knowing your taste as I do, I find it hard to imagine that you believe this. I'd be happy to discuss this in more detail if you disagree.



    Insofar as I understand your criticism of the collaboration, you seem to be saying that it's just yet another instance of insincere, ironic posturing. I don't buy this, because I don't think that's what Rei is all about. Even if she has produced work that is guilty of this (believe me, no one hates the Rolling Stones more than I do [79]), that work does not constitute all--or even the majority--of her collections. The collabs are another story. Although I personally find them lame because they are so blatantly commercial, and not because I perceive them as post-modern.



    Anyway, I have tried to be brief and simple, so I apologize for anything that appears unclear. I respect your point of view a great deal and I have no wish to argue with you--I'm really just trying to understand you. Sometimes your vitriol provokes me into being not so cool-headed, but that's really just a heat-of-the-moment reaction....nothing to take too seriously. [51]



    ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

    Comment

    • Faust
      kitsch killer
      • Sep 2006
      • 37852

      Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



      Well, I certainly didn't mean for the shit storm to happen. [86]. Ok, I'll try to sketch out the few things that has led me to the whole post-modern thing. One is Camp - I'll try to be as clear as possible on this - the way I see it, Rei started referencing pop culture very recently, but with a vengeance. This sudden shift raised my brows, because that's not the Rei I know. Now, obviously, it's Ok to change, but because (unlike someone like Gaultier, for whom Camp is the essence of his work) it was such a sudden move, it raised my brows. And she wasn't doing Camp the way Gauliter does (sticking the gay sailor into the face of the French bourgeoisie), but in a very (to me) bland way. Maybe it's because she is too late to the game, because Camp no longer has anything rebellious or even interesting about it, I don't know. And yet, and yet, everything she's been doing got nothing but praise, so I became to feel a bit of the Emperor's New Clothes moment. I am very allergic to hype, as you know. And what were people praising? Her sense of irony. Her "bad taste is good," her "humor", her "subversion" of pop-culture. Well, again - too fucking late, none of this is neither subversive, nor important, not even interesting at this point. And what resulted was this (I know I'm about to post the worst, but I am illustrating a point):



      Mens:



      FW07 - referencing three artists and doing the whole dream childhood thing. not so campy as an idea, i guess, but still pretty campy in execution.





      SS06 - Golden Boy, enough said.





      FW06 - The whole rockabilly thing (at least she played Tom Waits)





      SS06 - Rolling Stones. 'Nuff said.







      SS05 - Pink Panther



      Womens



      FW08 - Amy Winehouse (and the quote, "there is value in bad taste" - hello and welcome to 1964)





      SS08 - Rag dolls





      FW07 - MIckey Mouse





      I'll leave the flag collection out, I guess - I think I've made my point on her style of the last few years. Coupled with this, there has been a surge in pretty vapid collaborations, rapid retail expansion, several perfumes a year (sometimes a dozen perfumes a year if we count all the flavors of different series), and now underwear, and now H&M - which is not even on the same level as the speedo/perry collab. This will be produced, distributed, and sold by H&M. All of this has pretty much resulted in what I said. But as far as her postmodern values - which, yes, i strongly dislike - my reaction was more about her collections, the comments on her collections (which, if others did, would probably result in some serious brow-raising), and this wallowing in dubious collaborations. And I do think these collaborations and collections for Rei have Warholian overtones (if Warhol can do Monroe, why can't she do Rolling Stones, if he promotes the idea that nothing is too low, why can't she collaborate with H&M), given the above.



      And Joffe speaking next to Louis Vuitton and Prada reps at a global luxury conference on the business value of collaborations in terms of strategic expansion and branding, just made me pissed off even more.



      Ok, I wrote a handful. I hope I clarified my views. [72]

      Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

      StyleZeitgeist Magazine

      Comment

      • Chinorlz
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2006
        • 6422

        Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



        I love this :)




        Both sides present their arguments and the discussion doesn't get taken personally [Y]




        Faust, I like the photographic breakdown of the seasons that Rei has produced... I've actually never seen them like this before (CdG has been on the periphery for me admittedly) and it's quite brow raising in this context!

        www.AlbertHuangMD.com - Digital Portfolio Of Projects & Designs

        Merz (5/22/09):"i'm a firm believer that the ultimate prevailing logic in design is 'does shit look sick as fuck' "

        Comment

        • the breaks
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2007
          • 1543

          Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

          Faust makes a compelling point. Personally I was a little unhappy with the Speedo collaboration and now with H&M it just seems... well, it seems like cashing out to me.
          Suede is too Gucci.

          Comment

          • Faust
            kitsch killer
            • Sep 2006
            • 37852

            Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

            See, the thing is, the breaks, I don't think she is doing it for cashing out (or in [75]). I think she is doing it as a Warholian type of a gesture. Obviously, I may be completely wrong.
            Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

            StyleZeitgeist Magazine

            Comment

            • the breaks
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2007
              • 1543

              Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



              Yeah i can see your point there. And as you said, that whole perspective is so dated and worn out at this point it would be hard to respect any designer resorting to it.





              edit: Just to clarify, i don't necessarily agree that that's what Rei is doing here.

              Suede is too Gucci.

              Comment

              • matthewhk
                Senior Member
                • Jan 2007
                • 1049

                Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

                [quote user="gerry"]

                [quote user="BECOMING-INTENSE"]Another thing I find interesting, which maybe has already been noted, is that H&M is launching a grand store in Tokyo, japan and they are choosing Rei Kawakubo to collaborate with!
                [/quote]



                I hadn't thought about that. Considering that CDG is supposedly much more widespread in Japan, that's definitely an amazing marketing tactic on H&M's part.



                [/quote]



                Well, as far as high profile Japanese designers go, Comme is the one that makes the most sense for them to go to. I really think in some ways Comme is one of the most commercial institutions of Japanese fashion. Yohji for H&M wouldn't make sense...although he's already kinda doing that with Y-3. Even Watanabe is too niche and distinct for a mass market collaboration to work, let alone the darker labels like Undercover and Number Nine.

                The pop culture references in Comme's main line worked with the Rolling Stones collection because of its tongue in cheekness as well as relevance, but many of the recent collections were failed experiments because they were either too tired (the golden boy season with its heavy use of metallics and glitter, after this trend had been going on in fashion for a while) or trying (F/W 07's take on the eccentric dandy wasn't done as well as Junya's foray into this genre; Rei's work here just came off as awkward and uninspiring). I think the current season is unwearable after having taken a look at it closely for the first time yesterday, but as a conceptual exercise it succeeds where Rei often hasn't in recent memory.

                Comment

                • laika
                  moderator
                  • Sep 2006
                  • 3787

                  Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



                  Faust, thanks very much for taking the time to do that. I know it must have taken some effort but it definitely clarifies your point of view a lot... I still see things differently, but I can appreciate where you are coming from.



                  [quote user="the breaks"]



                  And as you said, that whole perspective is so dated and worn out at this point it would be hard to respect any designer resorting to it.





                  edit: Just to clarify, i don't necessarily agree that that's what Rei is doing here.



                  [/quote]



                  I think this is where it gets complicated for me also. I mean, it's one thing to say that Rei has gotten lazy with her menswear, frequently falling back on graphics and various cultural icons for inspiration. But to say that she is indulging in the "low" or in "bad taste" for the sake of irony requires a leap. One would have to believe that she is lying when she says she's interested in the raw energy of rock n' roll (Lips collection); or when she says that she wants to pay homage to a group of men who have inspired her (London collection). Perhaps this is not Rei indulging in bad taste, but Rei indulging in her personal taste? Maybe the clothes are simply meant as playful alternatives to the general somberness of menswear, and not as grand warholian gestures? Faust, I know you and dbc both believe she is insincere about her motives, but I don't see how one could really prove that without being in her head. What I remember about most of these shows is that the clothes in the stores were really quite excellent--fabrics, construction, execution, everything. And I ultimately prefer to judge concept and execution from the garments, rather than from the runway shows.



                  With the women's collections--I just have a completely different interpretation altogether. We've been over a lot of that in the S/S 08 and F/W 08-09 threads though, so I won't rehash here.



                  (Unless you want me to.) [75][51]



                  ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

                  Comment

                  • matthewhk
                    Senior Member
                    • Jan 2007
                    • 1049

                    Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



                    I don't feel there is anything particularly insincere about Rei's work, her stuff in recent years seems to exist on a plane of its own and if I remember what I read in an interview with her, she doesn't pay attention to what else goes on in the fashion world so I think she is just churning these collections out almost the way a writer might sit down and produce books through stream of consciousness. I don't even think there's any motive to any of it...it's just there



                    But I do think CdG as a corporation has become quite Warholian in the way it's operating...I dunno if Adrian has a big effect on that. My dad made the comment earlier tonight that he felt once Rei hooked up with Adrian the whole brand's gone down the shitter.

                    Comment

                    • Faust
                      kitsch killer
                      • Sep 2006
                      • 37852

                      Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



                      No, rehash by all means. Actually, if you can also explain in the Rick Owens thread why you see him as campy, I would like that as well. [51]



                      Of course, I can't prove anything, I've actually just said that up top. However, this is my interpretation, and I just wanted to show that I did not concoct it out of thin air.[B]



                      EDIT: Also, I am not sure I would call her motives insincere - maybe she really does think all that, who knows.

                      Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                      StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                      Comment

                      • Faust
                        kitsch killer
                        • Sep 2006
                        • 37852

                        Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

                        [quote user="matthewhk"]

                        I don't feel there is anything particularly insincere about Rei's work, her stuff in recent years seems to exist on a plane of its own and if I remember what I read in an interview with her, she doesn't pay attention to what else goes on in the fashion world so I think she is just churning these collections out almost the way a writer might sit down and produce books through stream of consciousness. I don't even think there's any motive to any of it...it's just there



                        But I do think CdG as a corporation has become quite Warholian in the way it's operating...I dunno if Adrian has a big effect on that. My dad made the comment earlier tonight that he felt once Rei hooked up with Adrian the whole brand's gone down the shitter.



                        [/quote]



                        I find that hard to believe, even when Ann says that. I don't know, I would think that would be pretty hard, no? I know if I was a designer, I would certainly want to take a pulse of the industry at least once in a while.

                        Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months - Oscar Wilde

                        StyleZeitgeist Magazine

                        Comment

                        • matthewhk
                          Senior Member
                          • Jan 2007
                          • 1049

                          Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

                          well, given how off kilter and random the timing of some of her collections is, i wouldn't be surprised if it was the truth. Like that Golden Boy collection came out long after metallics were the big thing...

                          Comment

                          • laika
                            moderator
                            • Sep 2006
                            • 3787

                            Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

                            That's a great point, Matt. Maybe that is also why Faust finds her inspirations to be rather hackneyed.
                            ...I mean the ephemeral, the fugitive, the contingent, the half of art whose other half is the eternal and the immutable.

                            Comment

                            • Johnny
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2006
                              • 1923

                              Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"

                              [quote user="Faust"]


                              And Johnny certainly said that - how else do you interpret his post that I just quoted?!




                              [/quote]




                              I don't really want to drag this topic up again, but since I feel that I'm being misrepresented and I've been away for a bit, I wanted just to respond to you on this, for whatever it's worth. Please explain to me how the ONLY interpretation that can be given to my saying that, because I like her work generally, I'd like to see what the collaboration looks like,is that I'm saying that everything she touches turns to gold.Serously, I'd like to hear that. It's apparent in what I said that I am not pre-juding what the product will look like (positively or negatively), and in fact that the opposite is the case - that I would like not to pre-judge, but to wait and see. I agree that it is likely to be rubbish, and as I thought you knew, I am as capable as anyone else of critisizing CdGwhen I think it's rubbish (all of the pictures you posted are of rubbish clothes, none of which I'd consider buying), but it seems natural to me to be interested in what the stuff will looklikeexactly becauseit will come from someonewhose work - her body of work and certain of her current work, butnot all of it- I have an interest in, as distinct from a collaboration with someone (V&R etc) whose mainlinework I have no interest in?This seems very uncontroversial and obvious. I also thought you knewme better, and perhaps had a little more respect for me, than to accuse me of fanboism.

                              Comment

                              • matthewhk
                                Senior Member
                                • Jan 2007
                                • 1049

                                Re: The Comme des Garçons "Universe"



                                i bought a pair of lightweight basic straight leg cotton pants from the Homme Plus line this season, it is the first thing i have ever purchased from CdG, nothing too fancy, patch style back pockets and comfortable to walk around in with sneakers. However I'll note that the quality seems to be of an issue, i have found on some shirts some creases on the cuff that clearly wasn't meant to be there. Even the pants i bought, i compared them to a pair of Gap khakis i purchased a few days later and there isn't a significant enough difference in the quality of fabric and construction of the Comme piece to warrant it being touted as a designer item. They were pretty cheap for the Japanese price, but I imagine if i had to pay what they would cost at say, the NYC boutique, no way would i have paid that much for a pair of pants like this.



                                If the stuff from the main label collection is already so basic and average, i am having a hard time imagining what the H&M collaboration is going to end up like.

                                Comment

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