Carol Christian Poell

[Fuuma]

dude its not about the penis its about gender indifferentiation

Wait, are we talking about Barney, Poell, me, you, Faust, my pants, the universe, or something else?

[philip nod]

i think we're talking about ejaculating coffee onto the screen

[laika]

in the days they were doing those collections for women, the team consisted of six indispensables (except him), and four of whom were women.
each collections and pieces there carried stories about which there is not enough time to say things now. but none of them were for expressing likes and dislikes of sexes.

Q: what do you think fashion today is losing?
"its significance it used to have, since it has lost its meaning and social reference.
in fact, it has become superficial and is mostly about self celebration, styling and making money."

this statement was also from the same days (and his thought was to lead to the mainstream/downstream).
it seemed that he wanted to object to the way the then industry was.
and the fashion world for women might have looked escalated and worse because of the larger scale.
I guess that had something to do with those collections being ironic and defiant.
the pent-up objection might have reached the critical state around the time.
although every profile says they started womens from 99 somehow, they had been doing it much earlier. and the clothes had been classic and beautiful.

a polaroid he took in 2001

Thank you for this, the context is very helpful. And the polaroid is great. I would love to see some of this earlier work somehow, as watching the evolution from season to season is so key to understanding the whole of what he is up to.

deleuze, it seems you were absolutely right about the subtraction and where to go from there...

[Chant]

dude its not about the penis its about gender indifferentiation

Discussing is lame. Let's start some picture dropping.

And please don't forget : penis does not equal phallus.


"You sure ???".

[philip nod]

so is crouka, (thanks you for this btw i would love to have a poell polaroid,) meaning to imply that because of poell's increasing dissatisfaction with the fashion press and world he decided to attack it at its foundation and change his approach from classicism to perhaps the now definable as "poellian avant garde" through his rejection of the status quo. while my provocation that poell hates women was intended to generate a dialogue, it would seem as if hate and disdain is in the foundation of the work that we know and love as ccp and woman, for a time, were the altered mouthpiece for his voice.

this is logical because mens fashion was nowhere near where it is today. so it would follow that ccp has now become the reverse victim of his own psychology. by expressing his disdain for the fashion industry through women and then abandoning women all together as the ultimate "fuck you" gesture, he then concentrated all his power on mens clothes, honing this dictum even further btw 02-04, and menswear, this all but insignificant player in the market suddenly started to grow into exactly what he hated, and based on the rumors from last year, exactly what he hates now.

[laika]

while my provocation that poell hates women was intended to generate a dialogue, it would seem as if hate and disdain is in the foundation of the work that we know and love as ccp and woman, for a time, were the altered mouthpiece for his voice.

this is logical because mens fashion was nowhere near where it is today. so it would follow that ccp has now become the reverse victim of his own psychology. by expressing his disdain for the fashion industry through women and then abandoning women all together as the ultimate "fuck you" gesture, he then concentrated all his power on mens clothes, honing this dictum even further btw 02-04, and menswear, this all but insignificant player in the market suddenly started to grow into exactly what he hated, and based on the rumors from last year, exactly what he hates now.

I think this is very likely correct. The extreme logical end of anti-fashion (or starting point, as you've constructed it) is anti-woman. Woman embodies Fashion and vice-versa, where both are understood to be changeable, ephemeral, excessive, contingent, etc. (thinking "Painter of Modern Life" here). Fashion is also a kind of artificial substitute for fertility--constantly re-newable, ever young, born again every season. And what this artificiality conceals, of course, is death, decay, age, etc. all things that Poell is obsessed with and all the obverse of what (fashion as) woman stands for.

***sorry my writing is really shit today, and this is pretty complicated.

[casem]

Laika, Pnod, Chant, Crouka and others just collectively blew my mind.

[Chant]

I think this is very likely correct. The extreme logical end of anti-fashion (or starting point, as you've constructed it) is anti-woman. Woman embodies Fashion and vice-versa, where both are understood to be changeable, ephemeral, excessive, contingent, etc. (thinking "Painter of Modern Life" here). Fashion is also a kind of artificial substitute for fertility--constantly re-newable, ever young, born again every season. And what this artificiality conceals, of course, is death, decay, age, etc. all things that Poell is obsessed with and all the obverse of what (fashion as) woman stands for.

***sorry my writing is really shit today, and this is pretty complicated.

If CCP is the Baudelaire of fashion (means the Baudelaire of Le Peintre de la vie moderne, which is indeed a quite misogynistic text), then their vision of the woman should to be connected with the cultural influence of the catholicism.

Yes, no season, no renewal, eternal return of the same items and the same shapes (my coat from 99 has almost the same shape as these from this year)... In addition, the action of time (pleats, splits, cracks) is "embedded", since the very first begining of the production, in the fabric, which make his boots, for example, look like aged shoes.
But to be overaged is very near to be without age. Btw I've often read this advertisement like argument from CCP belovers : your CCP boots will last your entire life.
There are two ways to fight against aging : the "fashion" way (young models forever young wearing every season new clothes made with beautiful and immaculate materials), and the CCP way (integrating, to "control" them, the ravages of time). But their goals are same, or close.


EDIT : phallus is always a symbol of fertility.

[philip nod]

i like what you say about fertility which proves my point about ccp relationship w Barney even more. Barney sought to locate and create a body of work about the space of gender equation before the testicles descended. a virgin territory if you will. in fact, ironically, in 94 it was my mom who first pointed barney out to me, as he had appeared in vogue or something. he was embraced by a fashion audience just as quickly as an art one, and it makes sense. and didn't ccp start out around 94?

[kira]

Pnod: and then abandoning women all together as the ultimate "fuck you" gesture, he then concentrated all his power on mens clothes,

I am not sure if it is a 'fuck you' gesture, or more of the realization of non-necessity perhaps? I feel like the concentration on the mens clothes further could illustrate the move towards gender indifferentiation, maybe?

Laika: Fashion is also a kind of artificial substitute for fertility--constantly re-newable, ever young, born again every season. And what this artificiality conceals, of course, is death, decay, age, etc. all things that Poell is obsessed with and all the obverse of what (fashion as) woman stands for.

Fertility, rebirth, etc- MB's opera...but Poell did/does deal with Fertility as well, preservation, mummification of sorts. I say this now in thinking about those new twisting pants...maybe a stretch in thought, but my brain is going there.

your shit writing is quite beautiful

[ran]

[I]Pnod: and then abandoning women all together as the ultimate "fuck you" gesture, he then concentrated all his power on mens clothes
...
your shit writing is quite beautiful

my favorite of any poster here!!

[cabl3]

This is just a minor speculation in regards to the entire "contempt towards the FE-MALE gender".

Although it's been mentioned that the fact that CCP makes sizes for women from the men's collection demonstrates his appreciation for a certain, select kind of women; could it possibly be that the production of articles that were intended for men in sizes with minor alterations for women, is a possible extention of the "fuck you" that has been discussed here? Though I dont entirely believe it myself, but such productions could and may be misconstrued as an apparent attempt to subdue, subject or make any kind of submissive point by forcing the female in question to take on a stylistic aesthetic that was not originally intended for her, but for men.

Again, tihs is all purely speculative and overanalytical, yet I couldnt help but address this matter as I read the previous posts.

[BeauIXI]

My image of CCP is that he's totally over it. He's totally out of the fashion game, and even furthermore, he's totally out of gender roles and typical aesthetics. The "fuck you" is basically directed toward the everyday and the monotonous earthbound aesthetic we're all geared toward, whereas his is more philosophical, artistic(?), comprehensive only to itself, and so on.

[crouka]

so is crouka, (thanks you for this btw i would love to have a poell polaroid,) meaning to imply that because of poell's increasing dissatisfaction with the fashion press and world he decided to attack it at its foundation and change his approach from classicism to perhaps the now definable as "poellian avant garde" through his rejection of the status quo. while my provocation that poell hates women was intended to generate a dialogue, it would seem as if hate and disdain is in the foundation of the work that we know and love as ccp and woman, for a time, were the altered mouthpiece for his voice.

this is logical because mens fashion was nowhere near where it is today. so it would follow that ccp has now become the reverse victim of his own psychology. by expressing his disdain for the fashion industry through women and then abandoning women all together as the ultimate "fuck you" gesture, he then concentrated all his power on mens clothes, honing this dictum even further btw 02-04, and menswear, this all but insignificant player in the market suddenly started to grow into exactly what he hated, and based on the rumors from last year, exactly what he hates now.

maybe the period he was most involved in it was around 97 98. those were the days you saw the second line, the runway presentation (S/S 98, it was not highly regarded, and so the first and last one. if there had been a "fuck you gesture", this might have been it), and that vertical logo tee originally produced as an exclusive at a certain retailer's request.
** of course along with such things as he is doing today though.
and also the days he was fussed over and there were not a few houses after him as a creative director kind of thing.
so he had already been into it. actually he had danced to the industry's tune somewhat.
and he might have thought he was losing himself.

"when I realized I had been sucked in it was almost too late, but I abandoned the trends. I wanted to express my sense of crisis regarding that cynicism."

it often looks as if he has been turning the knife inward, for quite a while.
really a hate for himself, as long as he is part of it, in my eyes.

[Faust]

I think this is very likely correct. The extreme logical end of anti-fashion (or starting point, as you've constructed it) is anti-woman. Woman embodies Fashion and vice-versa, where both are understood to be changeable, ephemeral, excessive, contingent, etc. (thinking "Painter of Modern Life" here). Fashion is also a kind of artificial substitute for fertility--constantly re-newable, ever young, born again every season. And what this artificiality conceals, of course, is death, decay, age, etc. all things that Poell is obsessed with and all the obverse of what (fashion as) woman stands for.

***sorry my writing is really shit today, and this is pretty complicated.

Maybe he's also read too much Veblen.